Someone on another thread said they didn't see the difference between someone taking a book for sale, changing the name of the characters, then selling it between fanfic.
They'd didn't see one difference at all. Regardless of how you feel - theft of character - my point was that there are a myriad of differences. I wrote fanfic. I never copied someone's stories word for word, nor did I try to sell it, nor did I lie about the fact that I didn't create the characters.
Plagiarism is like one thing: plagiarism. Whatever problem you have with fanfic, with the people who craft stories on their own in someone else's world, their stories, their words, are their own. They didn't just copy and paste something. This has made me see someone in a new light: if you can't differentiate between those two things, you've just accused me of the same thing the plagiarist has done. I didn't steal a story. I didn't try to defraud everyone by selling that story as if it were my own.
I took credit only for my own work, and not that of any other. I just can't even.
I'm on the side of "fanfic isn't theft," unless you bring in P2P - even if the original fic was AU, filing off the serial numbers, publishing it as an original work, and making money off it is absolutely not in keeping with the way I've understood fanfic circles are supposed to operate.
Everybody (except maybe P2Pers) knows that they're playing around in someone else's sandbox, and, in fact, probably loves that sandbox to a painful degree. One of the reasons I wrote and read fanfic was because I loved the worlds and characters involved so much that the original creators literally could not keep up with my personal demand. Rather than be one of those annoying fans who demands more, I sought out more that others had created, or created more myself - with the understanding that this "more" wasn't canon and would never quite be like getting more from the original creator themselves. It's like eating little snacks to sustain yourself while you wait for your steak dinner to finally finish cooking.
" If someone is writing fanfic with the purpose of exploring and understanding the character, then that allows the writer to improve their skills with a known commodity to base it upon. If they're writing simply to write something that the character can't / wouldn't / shouldn't be party to in the first place, that's more of a reflection of the writer's personal issues."
The line between these two can be very fuzzy, though. For example, the first fiction I knew of with explicitly, stated-in-the-text asexual characters was fanfic. The characters' sexuality (or lack there of) was usually ambiguous in the original works, or the original creators were ambiguous about it at the beginning and changed things later on.
You could argue that fanfic writers were writing the characters in ways that they would never be written in the original works. You could argue that the way they wrote them was a reflection of their personal issues, particularly if the fanfic writer was asexual themselves (it is deeply depressing when it's difficult or impossible to find characters that reflect your own experience - head canon becomes an emotional life raft). However, I don't necessarily see anything wrong with that, and in fact think that ALL fanfic is as much a reflection of the fanfic writers as they are of anything in the original works. That's the reason why it's never going to be the same as experiencing the original works, and why I can't think of it on the same level as plagiarism (which literally /is/ the original works).
All I can say is that I don't disagree, I just don't see anything wrong with it, and would say that's actually a feature and not a bug. It's why people read both the original works /and/ fanfic, rather than abandoning the original works for fanfic.
Yeah, but fanfic isn't ruining that - their original ideas are still there, and fanfic is never going to change any of that. I do think fans shouldn't be sending their fanfic to the creators of the original works though, the same way I don't think reviewers should be notifying authors when they've written a review of their work - if the creators want to see how other people are interpreting their works, fine, but don't shove it in their faces.
How is changing, adding to any different than say a parody? I would point out example but I hate typing on my kindle. When my comp is finished updating I will come back.
Sorry my Kindle sucks, as my eyes suck. What I meant is, it is OK for Weird Al to use a theme/world and change the characters and he males money off kt. How is that any different than fanfic?
So everyone knows, I like fanfic. There is someone who writes using Kenyon's Dark hunters universe that is sometimes better than the real stuff.
There is an original element to Weird Al: the words.
And yes, parody and satire are protected.
Although Meghan Trainor was in legal hot water for her song All About That Bass using almost the same exact music as a K-pop song because it was not parody or satire.
I get that and I like weird al, he was just the first that came to mind. Yes plagiarism is a problem. I seem to remember reading something not too long ago about an author being accused of plagiarizing fanfic. I can't think straight right now they are doing construction next door it is making my he'd throb.
I don't think that FanFic is devaluing or diluting the original work.
There are numerous copies of the Mona Lisa. Pictures of the ceiling in the Sistine Chapel. Artworks throughout time are copied and mimicked. It doesn't de-value or dilute the original. In some cases it allows another interpretation. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder and it is up to the beholder as to where they put their eyes.
Look at our songs. Many have become hits only after they are covered by another artist; the original still being unknown.
Who was it that invented many of the creatures that we write about? Zombies, golems, elfs, dark elfs, etc. Are we to stop using these characters? These races? How about the inventions that have been created ... who was it that invented the time machine? The space ship? Warp drive? Are these to be copyrighted to the original creators also?
Now ... specific characters within a race ... that's where the water gets muddy, but it comes back to the Mona Lisa copies and interpretations again.
We have a general situation within the UK law regarding photography. You can take a picture of anyone legally, as long as you're standing on public property. You can do what you like with those pictures as long as you are not charging. The moment you charge, however, then you need a model release form. That seems to be the rule under which fan fic has been operating.
I do concern myself with the amount of creation being done today, and the potential that we are backing ourselves in to a corner where nothing new can be created as whatever we do, we are stepping on someone else's toes.
For the good of society in general, I believe we have to allow fan fic and tolerate it; as long as we are not turning someone elses specific characters in to cash ... but how about writing about, for example, Klingon characters that are not explicitly those previously noted in the Star Trek universe? (Just like we do for the human race all the time!) ... when you get down to this level, I believe that drawing the line becomes difficult.
For commercially selling work, I agree. Create something new. For non-commercial work, what are new writers going to practice on, or are you going to insist that everyone starts swimming in the deep end. And what about the people who cosplay as specific characters from these worlds? Are they to be stopped as well, as they are portraying the characters and no doubt doing things that the originator didn't intend with the character.
No difference in terms of someone portraying the character other than the creator intended.
Unintended consequences have to be thought out - like France outlawing face covering to get rid of the burqua; it knocked on to zentai suits, halloween costumes, furry players, etc. ... and if you go along the lines of banning portrayal of an author's specific character, then expect that ruling to go beyond written works.
I just see it as dangerous territory with unforeseen consequences if care isn't taken. And that's where I'm going to leave it.
Troy, I was writing both original stories and fanfic for a period of time. I started out original, when I was in grade school, really cut my teeth on fanfic, and did both when I was in college. Here's the thing: it did serve a purpose, at least for me. Writing for my writing class was tougher on me, as I knew it would be... not judged. It was just going towards my grades. It was pressure.
Fair enough. I think the fact that I did boils down to we feel differently about head canon, and fanfic in general.
But fanfic has many uses, and for me, reading as well as writing it serves a different purpose for me than reading the original canon, or even original works. I see a use for it all, but I also know some people despise fanfic, and that's their right.
My problem is... part of fanfic is original. That story is original. The only problem I had is with saying fanfic=plagiarism, as in stealing the exact words of a story is exactly like fanfic. That's... accusing a lot of people who didn't do that exact thing of doing it.
And I think you'd agree, having written fanfic yourself, that while not 100% original, it's not copy and pasting a story written by someone else, either. Those are two different animals.
Troy, so what about comics, tv series, and other forms of writing/drawing/whatever that include different takes on a character? Does other people writing Spider-Man dilute Stan Lee's vision, for example?
Is that more or less gratifying for the writer because they're getting paid? Let's not forget that there are many shared worlds out there, and many people who write or draw, for the most part, characters they don't create. They're more than happy to do this: thrilled.
I think the statement that it worked best for you is true. And I may be wrong - maybe now you think fanfic=straight out copying and pasting, and they're both the same exact thing. I've just never heard a former fanfic writer say that, so apologies for my assumption.
For me, when I think of writing, I long to write fanfic. I actually find it more satisfying to try and stay within the constraints of the original than do whatever the hell I want. I find it releases stress more for me. I wonder what people who write other people's characters for a living feel: are they boxed in, or do they relish that?
It's alright. I was posting, then had to jet for a bit. Eating lunch, have errands to run, then have to head out again.
And I agree on most of this. (Although I do like head canon or whatever you want to call it. You know what I mean!)
I think one of the things I like about fanfic-for-hire is that I get a different perspective, and a lot of times, it's great. Not always, no, but if I didn't love a majority of it, I'd quit it.
OB, I agree. I tried to stay in playgrounds where the authors/companies were okay with it. If they started suing, I would not only stop, but also take down my works.
Yes, alright, let's go with that. I do tend to like groups - X-Men, Guardians of the Galaxy, and in particular pairings of close friends: Wolverine and Kitty, Wolverine and Nightcrawler, Groot and Rocket. So, yes, the friendship.
Yes, but I wrote about characters I fell in love with. It was more than just a general group dynamic: the loyalty that the Dinobots had was specific to those five.
I couldn't recreate it without using those specific characters, or their backgrounds.
And, um, a lot of times the hotness. I wrote a lot of PWP, to be honest.
To be honest, if I were writing fanfic back when I was, I would go for the humor aspect: they always get in trouble, and someone is like *shake fists* you clumsy, stupid Dinobots, and they stood up for each other, and were like, 'we don't give a fuck. We've got each other.'
However, if I were writing fanfic today, it would be IDW. It would be deeper than that: the flaws in how Grimlock thinks any means are okay if he gets the results he wants, the bitterness and disappointment, and how he redeemed himself after by turning himself in so long as Magnus wiped out the warrants for the other Dynobots.
The struggle with Cybertron itself, and I think I'd end up focusing on when they first realized they were different and monstrous: when they first drank of that tainted Energon.
And then it would turn to porn. (Which yes, says a lot more about me than them, but they have husbands. And what I thought were wives but turned out to be best friends, so now I'm super confused. I'm just saying, there were declarations of love, so I think ignoring romance and sex is ridiculous because, hello, at least part of it is there in the text. And what isn't, well, I suspect it isn't so people aren't too horrified by the fact that Cybertronians have S-E.-X, too. It's such a taboo to talk about it sometimes.)
So, wait, you weren't trying to make me want to write fanfiction again, were you? Because if not, you're working against yourself. So. Many. Plot. Bunnies.
I think this is either a failure or a win. (It's a win for me, but I'm imagining you face palming and just shaking your head.)
They'd didn't see one difference at all. Regardless of how you feel - theft of character - my point was that there are a myriad of differences. I wrote fanfic. I never copied someone's stories word for word, nor did I try to sell it, nor did I lie about the fact that I didn't create the characters.
Plagiarism is like one thing: plagiarism. Whatever problem you have with fanfic, with the people who craft stories on their own in someone else's world, their stories, their words, are their own. They didn't just copy and paste something. This has made me see someone in a new light: if you can't differentiate between those two things, you've just accused me of the same thing the plagiarist has done. I didn't steal a story. I didn't try to defraud everyone by selling that story as if it were my own.
I took credit only for my own work, and not that of any other. I just can't even.
Everybody (except maybe P2Pers) knows that they're playing around in someone else's sandbox, and, in fact, probably loves that sandbox to a painful degree. One of the reasons I wrote and read fanfic was because I loved the worlds and characters involved so much that the original creators literally could not keep up with my personal demand. Rather than be one of those annoying fans who demands more, I sought out more that others had created, or created more myself - with the understanding that this "more" wasn't canon and would never quite be like getting more from the original creator themselves. It's like eating little snacks to sustain yourself while you wait for your steak dinner to finally finish cooking.
But I love fanfic when it's purely for non-profit fun!
The line between these two can be very fuzzy, though. For example, the first fiction I knew of with explicitly, stated-in-the-text asexual characters was fanfic. The characters' sexuality (or lack there of) was usually ambiguous in the original works, or the original creators were ambiguous about it at the beginning and changed things later on.
You could argue that fanfic writers were writing the characters in ways that they would never be written in the original works. You could argue that the way they wrote them was a reflection of their personal issues, particularly if the fanfic writer was asexual themselves (it is deeply depressing when it's difficult or impossible to find characters that reflect your own experience - head canon becomes an emotional life raft). However, I don't necessarily see anything wrong with that, and in fact think that ALL fanfic is as much a reflection of the fanfic writers as they are of anything in the original works. That's the reason why it's never going to be the same as experiencing the original works, and why I can't think of it on the same level as plagiarism (which literally /is/ the original works).
So everyone knows, I like fanfic. There is someone who writes using Kenyon's Dark hunters universe that is sometimes better than the real stuff.
And yes, parody and satire are protected.
Although Meghan Trainor was in legal hot water for her song All About That Bass using almost the same exact music as a K-pop song because it was not parody or satire.
There are numerous copies of the Mona Lisa. Pictures of the ceiling in the Sistine Chapel. Artworks throughout time are copied and mimicked. It doesn't de-value or dilute the original. In some cases it allows another interpretation. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder and it is up to the beholder as to where they put their eyes.
Look at our songs. Many have become hits only after they are covered by another artist; the original still being unknown.
Who was it that invented many of the creatures that we write about? Zombies, golems, elfs, dark elfs, etc. Are we to stop using these characters? These races? How about the inventions that have been created ... who was it that invented the time machine? The space ship? Warp drive? Are these to be copyrighted to the original creators also?
Now ... specific characters within a race ... that's where the water gets muddy, but it comes back to the Mona Lisa copies and interpretations again.
We have a general situation within the UK law regarding photography. You can take a picture of anyone legally, as long as you're standing on public property. You can do what you like with those pictures as long as you are not charging. The moment you charge, however, then you need a model release form. That seems to be the rule under which fan fic has been operating.
I do concern myself with the amount of creation being done today, and the potential that we are backing ourselves in to a corner where nothing new can be created as whatever we do, we are stepping on someone else's toes.
For the good of society in general, I believe we have to allow fan fic and tolerate it; as long as we are not turning someone elses specific characters in to cash ... but how about writing about, for example, Klingon characters that are not explicitly those previously noted in the Star Trek universe? (Just like we do for the human race all the time!) ... when you get down to this level, I believe that drawing the line becomes difficult.
Unintended consequences have to be thought out - like France outlawing face covering to get rid of the burqua; it knocked on to zentai suits, halloween costumes, furry players, etc. ... and if you go along the lines of banning portrayal of an author's specific character, then expect that ruling to go beyond written works.
I just see it as dangerous territory with unforeseen consequences if care isn't taken. And that's where I'm going to leave it.
Fanfic was a way of blowing off steam.
But fanfic has many uses, and for me, reading as well as writing it serves a different purpose for me than reading the original canon, or even original works. I see a use for it all, but I also know some people despise fanfic, and that's their right.
My problem is... part of fanfic is original. That story is original. The only problem I had is with saying fanfic=plagiarism, as in stealing the exact words of a story is exactly like fanfic. That's... accusing a lot of people who didn't do that exact thing of doing it.
And I think you'd agree, having written fanfic yourself, that while not 100% original, it's not copy and pasting a story written by someone else, either. Those are two different animals.
Is that more or less gratifying for the writer because they're getting paid? Let's not forget that there are many shared worlds out there, and many people who write or draw, for the most part, characters they don't create. They're more than happy to do this: thrilled.
I think the statement that it worked best for you is true. And I may be wrong - maybe now you think fanfic=straight out copying and pasting, and they're both the same exact thing. I've just never heard a former fanfic writer say that, so apologies for my assumption.
For me, when I think of writing, I long to write fanfic. I actually find it more satisfying to try and stay within the constraints of the original than do whatever the hell I want. I find it releases stress more for me. I wonder what people who write other people's characters for a living feel: are they boxed in, or do they relish that?
And I agree on most of this. (Although I do like head canon or whatever you want to call it. You know what I mean!)
I think one of the things I like about fanfic-for-hire is that I get a different perspective, and a lot of times, it's great. Not always, no, but if I didn't love a majority of it, I'd quit it.
Also, I liked how close they were. I liked the whole hub, the friendship, although I like it more in IDW, but I didn't learn that until later.
I couldn't recreate it without using those specific characters, or their backgrounds.
And, um, a lot of times the hotness. I wrote a lot of PWP, to be honest.
However, if I were writing fanfic today, it would be IDW. It would be deeper than that: the flaws in how Grimlock thinks any means are okay if he gets the results he wants, the bitterness and disappointment, and how he redeemed himself after by turning himself in so long as Magnus wiped out the warrants for the other Dynobots.
The struggle with Cybertron itself, and I think I'd end up focusing on when they first realized they were different and monstrous: when they first drank of that tainted Energon.
And then it would turn to porn. (Which yes, says a lot more about me than them, but they have husbands. And what I thought were wives but turned out to be best friends, so now I'm super confused. I'm just saying, there were declarations of love, so I think ignoring romance and sex is ridiculous because, hello, at least part of it is there in the text. And what isn't, well, I suspect it isn't so people aren't too horrified by the fact that Cybertronians have S-E.-X, too. It's such a taboo to talk about it sometimes.)
So, wait, you weren't trying to make me want to write fanfiction again, were you? Because if not, you're working against yourself. So. Many. Plot. Bunnies.
I think this is either a failure or a win. (It's a win for me, but I'm imagining you face palming and just shaking your head.)