Hi, I'm really sorry but I haven't got this one read as I had a relapse with my M.S. I'll definitely contribute to the next one though if you'll have me! Sorry again.
11 years ago
I have a relative with MS. His biggest frustration is that there are periods of time when he can't focus to read. Hope you're okay.
Ungh, wow, you're tough. Just a couple things to get the discussion started.
First, I'm going to go with sometimes a monkey is just a monkey.
Second, Daniel Karlin, in his Introduction to my edition, has an interesting take on "The White Seal." He says that it is not about survival, but destruction. The Sea Cow (or Northern manatee) was already extinct when Kipling wrote the story. Karlin sees this dead creature leading Kotick to an unrealistic promised land as a passage from one life to the next. He points out that they reach the new island through an underwater tunnel, a symbol of death and rebirth. As the story tells us, more and more seals eventually find their way there as the years pass; "salvation," Karlin says, "has become a figure of speech for the seals gradual extinction." Well, it's an elegant theory.
11 years ago
Shows what an amateur reviewer I am. I didn't even look for deeper meanings.
Bookstooge and Lora, what were your favorite stories?
11 years ago
Mowgli's Brothers. It sets up the whole social order of the animals and we learn about Baloo's position as teacher of the young. The following stories showed more of Mowgli's human arrogance.
Yeah, Baloo's great, and as Ungh mentioned, it's funny how he reacts when Mowgli is in trouble.
On the other thing, here's a thought; tell me what you think. Criticizing "arrogance" is all very well in a civilized world where everyone is, supposedly, created equal (let's put aside Vonnegut's Harrison Bergeron), but it doesn't make a lot of sense in a jungle world where you have to use what you've got to survive. And if that means claws or intelligence, it's all good.........? Maybe an example would help.
11 years ago
Mowgli's arrogance makes him incautious though. He could have easily ended up tiger food because he thought he was superiour to Shere Khan.
Here is my review: http://olgagodim.booklikes.com/post/870844/multi-layered-and-fun
My favorite story - probably Rikki. It's the most light-hearted and optimistic. The most profound - The White Seal. The Mowgli stories and nice and very well known. My son loved them when he was a kid - he played Mowgli all the time, running around our apartment and fighting the tiger with his plastic sword. But in my son's version, the tiger never died. He always lived to be available for the next day's game.
"The children see him as a noble hero, but I must ask: is Koitick a hero or a dictator? Is there a difference?"
This smacks of that modern thinking I mentioned in my review. : -) Unless I'm misunderstanding your point (always a possibility). The only way in which I can see Kotick as dictatorial is if you believe that all the other seals are freely choosing their fate, and I think they lack the requisite knowledge to do that. Kotick points out that it's easy enough for a seal to take little notice of the ones who are driven away by men never to return -- because he hasn't seen what happens to them. Then, too (Karlin's analysis aside), the fact that more and more of them show up at the new island as the years pass shows that they are gradually coming to their senses. I think Kotick is a hero, but like many "people" with new ideas, he has to fight at first for acceptance.
"The last story, Her Majesty’s Servants...spoiled the taste of the entire book for me."
I'm sorry to hear this! I thought it was a wonderful story, all about how everyone is different and yet each has his own role in the grand scheme of things. I didn't find it "sad" at all. I mean, wars come and go, but the overriding message, which goes beyond all that anyway, remains a powerful one.
Kotick is beating them up, so they would change their minds. It's like monkeys who pinch Mowgli, so he would love them better.
As for the other seals - they don't have the knowledge, you're right. Does it mean they can't choose for themselves? I'm not sure. Look around you. Everyone is making choices based on very little knowledge. If a leader comes along and starts beating them to choose better, what would America have? A huge media outcry at the very least. Obama and his health care comes to mind.
Which is why metaphor -- even if we choose to see it here -- is by definition not literal. He beats them up because this is an animal's way to make a point. And given that, what would he be if he *didn't* beat them up? If someone doesn't understand that fire burns, I think it's ok to shove them out of a burning building, even if they skin their knee in the process. (I mean, let's face it: seals fight all the time. This isn't any more violent than what it takes to hold a good spot on the beach.)
I definitely agree about Servants. And speaking of queens, one of my favorite lines from the movie was John Cleese telling Mowgli, while showing him pictures during his language lessons, "No, that's not a boat. That's Queen Victoria."
Sorry about not joining in on the discussion today, it's been an extremely hot day (it's cooling down now but my phone is still reporting that it's 88 degrees) and it's hard to stay near a computer with such weather. I have so much to rant about that perhaps it is a blessing for the rest of you. I'll check in again later once it has cooled down.
Btw, I really enjoyed all your reviews and the different perspectives. :)
I watched the Disney film yesterday. That was fun. Very different, but -- duh. It's interesting that the first scripts evidently tried to stay true to the story, but Disney nixed that in a hurry. I liked all the characters, except the vultures. The hope was to get the Beatles to voice them. I would have loved that if (a) they changed them into kites, as they were in the story (vultures are just too ugly) and (b) they let them write the song (did not care for the vultures' song).
"Bare Necessities" was good and, even better maybe was the song by King Louie. (That's another might-have-been: they first thought of Louis Armstrong for the role, but scrapped the idea to avoid the controversy of casting a black man to voice an ape. But, oh, Louis would have been terrific.)
Forgot to come back to this. Hmph, got nuthin'... all the steams gone.
Oh, I watched the Rikki-Tikki-Tavi film, here: http://youtu.be/tuwNCgOYtnw
I kind of thought it was funny how I enjoyed this one just by doing what you're always saying, Gurgling -- just read it like you don't know what's what, the way a child would. :)
Does anyone else want to take the reins for the next one? My time's kind of limited just at the moment. Haven't even posted the reviews I've written. Could change in a couple of days or not for a few weeks. But that's why I don't want to start anything myself right now. Anyone?
I would love to, but what with the precarious nature of my health, I don't think I'd be reliable enough. I just had to quit running my book club that meets in Belfast and disband it. It's too much of a strain.I'm really sorry GPS.
11 years ago
I'm struggling to finish my current reads, so maybe a month of rest?
http://baelkina.booklikes.com/post/870236/the-jungle-book-by-rudyard-kipling
First, I'm going to go with sometimes a monkey is just a monkey.
Second, Daniel Karlin, in his Introduction to my edition, has an interesting take on "The White Seal." He says that it is not about survival, but destruction. The Sea Cow (or Northern manatee) was already extinct when Kipling wrote the story. Karlin sees this dead creature leading Kotick to an unrealistic promised land as a passage from one life to the next. He points out that they reach the new island through an underwater tunnel, a symbol of death and rebirth. As the story tells us, more and more seals eventually find their way there as the years pass; "salvation," Karlin says, "has become a figure of speech for the seals gradual extinction." Well, it's an elegant theory.
On the other thing, here's a thought; tell me what you think. Criticizing "arrogance" is all very well in a civilized world where everyone is, supposedly, created equal (let's put aside Vonnegut's Harrison Bergeron), but it doesn't make a lot of sense in a jungle world where you have to use what you've got to survive. And if that means claws or intelligence, it's all good.........? Maybe an example would help.
My favorite story - probably Rikki. It's the most light-hearted and optimistic. The most profound - The White Seal. The Mowgli stories and nice and very well known. My son loved them when he was a kid - he played Mowgli all the time, running around our apartment and fighting the tiger with his plastic sword. But in my son's version, the tiger never died. He always lived to be available for the next day's game.
A couple of thoughts:
"The children see him as a noble hero, but I must ask: is Koitick a hero or a dictator? Is there a difference?"
This smacks of that modern thinking I mentioned in my review. : -) Unless I'm misunderstanding your point (always a possibility). The only way in which I can see Kotick as dictatorial is if you believe that all the other seals are freely choosing their fate, and I think they lack the requisite knowledge to do that. Kotick points out that it's easy enough for a seal to take little notice of the ones who are driven away by men never to return -- because he hasn't seen what happens to them. Then, too (Karlin's analysis aside), the fact that more and more of them show up at the new island as the years pass shows that they are gradually coming to their senses. I think Kotick is a hero, but like many "people" with new ideas, he has to fight at first for acceptance.
"The last story, Her Majesty’s Servants...spoiled the taste of the entire book for me."
I'm sorry to hear this! I thought it was a wonderful story, all about how everyone is different and yet each has his own role in the grand scheme of things. I didn't find it "sad" at all. I mean, wars come and go, but the overriding message, which goes beyond all that anyway, remains a powerful one.
As for the other seals - they don't have the knowledge, you're right. Does it mean they can't choose for themselves? I'm not sure. Look around you. Everyone is making choices based on very little knowledge. If a leader comes along and starts beating them to choose better, what would America have? A huge media outcry at the very least. Obama and his health care comes to mind.
Btw, I really enjoyed all your reviews and the different perspectives. :)
"Bare Necessities" was good and, even better maybe was the song by King Louie. (That's another might-have-been: they first thought of Louis Armstrong for the role, but scrapped the idea to avoid the controversy of casting a black man to voice an ape. But, oh, Louis would have been terrific.)
And the ending was very good.
Oh, I watched the Rikki-Tikki-Tavi film, here: http://youtu.be/tuwNCgOYtnw
I kind of thought it was funny how I enjoyed this one just by doing what you're always saying, Gurgling -- just read it like you don't know what's what, the way a child would. :)
Are we going to do another group read this month?