Comments: 105
Abandoned by user 11 years ago
You cannot give it away, because that would be a violation of the terms of your sale. You may be able to lend it, if it is lending enabled. Once the person has read the book, you could delete it from your archives.
Ebooks are non-transferable. You can lend it in some cases, via Kindle or Nook, but that's about it. And you can only lend it once. Them's the rules. They suck, of course, but that's unfortunately currently the law.
Twisted Reads 11 years ago
I don't see a problem sharing your ebook once with someone. I know what it states in the terms, but going to a second hand store to buy someone's old books is ok? If you wanna give it to one person, I do not see the problem.
Derrolyn Anderson 11 years ago
I decided not to enable DRM on any of my e-books, and I'm perfectly fine with lending, gifting... whatever! After all, a paper copy may be read many times over. I want my books to be lendable by both libraries and individuals.
The only thing that chaps my hide are these torrent sites that pirate them. It's one thing to get some word-of-mouth pass-arounds among friends - another thing entirely to give them away for free, denying me a sale. THAT'S stealing.
That's what sets you apart from the major publishers, and even the small ones. If you self-pub, you have that option. I completely agree with your statement - we should be able to lend this books just like we can lend paper copies. Pirate sites and torrents are a whole other issue.

Word of mouth on one book that someone borrows from someone else could actually lead to a sale. You're smart to recognize that. :)
It's not a matter of what we think. Most books you can't give away, as people have pointed out, because of the terms of sale.
With the paperback, you no longer have it. With an ebook, there's no actual transfer - meaning, it doesn't automatically disappear from your e-reader.
Yeah, mostly it's that it's easier for you to keep the book as a file on your computer, strip the DRM, keep it, and then hand it off to a friend. It's easier to copy, and people have no way of knowing if you're doing that. You're buying the license to read the book for one person, so...

It's also the fact that it's newer and thus the rules and laws, I think, aren't as set in stone as they are for DTBs.
AnnaLund2011 10 years ago
Excellent input all of you. I take it then that the consensus is NO. With a side dish of "why the hell not?"
Much like life itself. Strange, beautiful, and totally incomprehensible. I shall hold on to my book. No, you can't have it. It is mine for all time. Or, at least, until I change laptops and lose it.
or until Amazon decides you should no longer be allowed to read it and wipes it from your device. Or something like that.
Have they done this, though? I can think of two times - one with a woman who, as far as I know, was using a friend's credit card to buy e-books from another country, and one other time when they realized the book was being sold illegally. (1984 is under copyright; someone had uploaded it, and was selling it with no right to do so. Amazon had to react or else face a major lawsuit. They also admitted that they reacted rashly, and would never do this again.)

But I've yet to hear that Amazon simply said, 'oh, we're yanking it for funsies', and then did so. Even the book that I had, that they pulled for violating what they considered acceptable content? They still let me download that after pulling it...

I can't find it now - but to be honest, it wasn't that great. I can't remember the title or author...
AnnaLund2011 10 years ago
No, no I don't buy from Amazon anymore. At least, not books.
Amara - that happened. The contract you enter with Amazon when purchasing an ebook is for a license. Not for the book itself. You are buying a license to read the ebook. And they can terminate that license for whatever reason they can book up. In most cases, you get a refund, but the book is gone either way.
B&N can do the same, as far as I know.
I didn't think of it either until it was pointed out to me, but I think there's a huge worry about piracy and stealing since it's far, far easier to copy than a paperback book is. I've also seen authors say that if someone pirates, say, a song, it's easier for an artist to, say, sell concert tickets. As they pointed out, the majority of authors are not filling up book signings of, say, forty or fifty people, much less a whole arena, so they aren't making up that money. The publishing industry? not so happy, happy with this.
Twisted Reads 10 years ago
Didn't they give the money back? But yea... that was ridic. I always DL the book from my acct onto my comp. Although not all countries has that option.
Twisted Reads 10 years ago
Amazon pulled a few books that was too graphic and ppl woke up to book missing on their kindles and acct... at least that's what I read. Word of mouth, could be wrong.
Ah, I didn't hear about that. I heard about the Orwell fiasco, but that was just the whole, eep, they're not allowed to be sellling this.
I heard the same thing. And that's what I said to Amara - you're buying a license to read an ebook. Not the file itself.
That's true. I just hadn't realized that they were pulling out of libraries for content. I thought it was just that one time with Orwell. Ah, well, live and learn!
Twisted Reads 10 years ago
That's fucked though... If you buy something you should own it... it's goes for everything. Except ebooks... then you shouldn't buy ebooks you should rent them.
Abandoned by user 10 years ago
Arguably, though, with the Orwell book, the users bought stolen property. I'm not suggesting that they bought it intentionally, but if you buy stolen property at a pawn shop, and the police show up at your house to retrieve it and return it to the rightful owner, you don't get to keep that $500.00 diamond ring that you bought for $40.00 because it isn't actually yours (at least not under U.S. law). The pawn shop wasn't able to transfer legitimate title to you, because they never had legitimate title. You would, potentially, have recourse to recover the $40.00 from the original thief and/or the pawnshop. But you don't get to keep the stolen property. The Orwell book was, more or less, stolen property.
Abandoned by user 10 years ago
That's just too simplistic. People lease cars all the time, and no one says "well, if you lease a car, you should own it." The terms of the contract are in the terms of use, and with an ebook, you are purchasing a license. If you don't like the terms, the solution is to buy a print edition. You just don't get to unilaterally change the terms of the contract you have agreed to because you decide that you don't like the terms after the contract has been performed upon.
I freaking hate it. It's so restricting and ridiculous! Part of a charm of a book was that if you don't like it you could give it away or sell it, to get some money back! Shit like that is why piracy is rampant. People that try to do things legally have nothing but problems. Kind of makes you want to flip a table.
Abandoned by user 10 years ago
I don't think that shit like that is why piracy is rampant. Pirates have no respect for the intellectual property rights of other people. They pirate movies, too, and DVDs are absolutely resellable. So are print editions of books and compact discs of music. Creators deserve to get paid for their work. Blaming them for the behavior of the criminals who steal from them sort of feels wrong to me.
Sorry, but there were games that could be installed only 3 times (true story - no formatting for your computer) or the ones where you had to be connected to internet to play (My internet comes and goes. I call bullshit on that.) That's basically spitting in the face of your clients.

I also believe that if you can't be bothered to pay for something and you download it, you wouldn't buy it either, even if piracy was impossible. So authors aren't loosing much (if anything). I'd even argue that some people will stumble upon stuff they'd normally never touch and decide to buy it after obtaining it illegally first.
Abandoned by user 10 years ago
I don't know anything about the game issue - I'm not a gamer. That would certainly seem to me to make the game not something that I would buy. With respect to pirating books, specifically, I just believe that theft is wrong. If I'm not willing to pay for something, I am not going to steal it, and then blame the creator for my theft. I really like nice clothes. Nordstrom's nice clothes are priced really high. If I steal them and get caught stealing them, can I then blame Nordstroms for overpricing their merchandise because if their clothes had been cheaper, I would've been able to afford to buy them? I just don't think that's a reasonable argument.
I won't buy a random book. I usually have to read it first to see if I like it. So I either go to a library and borrow one; find a friend that has it, or read a copy in a bookstore. It's comparable to trying out an outfit to see if it's good for you and if you want to keep it. It's not stealing, even though you had it on for a while, maybe even took some pictures or came back to try it on again. I believe if you love a book and respect the author, it's enough to make you pay out of your own volition. I don't believe in paying for books I'll read once - unless I can sell them afterwards. So no - I won't pay a full value for an ebook I can't sell.
Abandoned by user 10 years ago
I have no issue with any of this. You have a system that works for you (that doesn't involve piracy). You're right - none of what you just used as examples is stealing. I, on the other hand, do buy random books.
I think one of the problems we have is that books are quite expensive :( Minimum wage is about 400$ ... And electricity, water, gasoline are among the most expensive in Europe. (gas - 6.2$ per gallon). So if I spend 20$ on a book... It's a significant amount. I'd like to buy books more freely, but that's the reality.
Depends on a book. Normal, standard translated book is 14 -16 dollars. Sometimes even 12 if you get very lucky! But try buying an original book in English? Price goes up. Quite often above 20 (and I'm talking about normal books, not history and science). It's actually cheaper for me to buy a paperback from amazon when there's a discount and have it shipped. :/
Oh, and why would anyone buy an e-book if all you get is licence for one person to read?! Paperbacks are same price (or cheaper!) so... WTF?!
Abandoned by user 10 years ago
A lot of people don't want to buy ebooks for just that reason (maybe you are one of the). But, at least with respect to my kindle books, I have nine people on my account, and we can all read the kindle book. Six of us can read my copy of Gone Girl all at the same time. I find that to be a more valuable characteristic than the ability to give away a single copy of Gone Girl once I have finished reading it. In addition, of those nine people, we are scattered over three different states. I also share a book club account with five other people that I met through a shared love of Young Adult books. We each contribute one $25.00 gift card to the account each month. For $25.00, I get $150.00 worth of book purchasing power, and we can all read the books at the same time. If we want to. Print books can't do that.
Print books also won't disappear on amzon's whim. I do understand that there are pros and cons in both cases. I do. I also think ebooks have a future, but there are some really annoying restrictions. Not stupid, I do understand their concerns, just plain annoying.
Abandoned by user 10 years ago
Yeah, I sometimes forget that not everyone has access to the low U.S. prices on books. My friend Kribu has to remind me. I typically get between 2 and 6 books for $20.00 (traditionally published books, not self-published books). For example, my giveaway copy of Discount Armageddon cost me $7.19, and I don't pay sales tax because I live in a state that doesn't have sales tax.
AnnaLund2011 10 years ago
god I love this place. look at where this convo has taken us!
I really appreciated the comparison to leasing a car. that made it clearer to me. And this also makes it very clear that Amazon and kindle is not for me.
I buy directly from the publishers. Or the authors.
I'm actually afraid to buy a kindle ereader now :( Would it work fine wih wi-fi off and books from different publishers?
I have a Nook, and I buy books either from B&N (few and far between) or directly from publishers. As long as the book is an epub, I can put it on the Nook to read. And purchasing from publishers with the allowed download also means that they're not going to take it away from you later on.
AnnaLund2011 10 years ago
I download the ePub to my iPad (and it also ends up on my iPhone) but when I'm at the publisher downloading the file, I usually also download Mobi and pdf - you just never know what's around the corner in the electronic world. I save all the files together on my laptop, only the ePubs get transferred to the iPad.
When I bought books from Amazon, I had to open them in the Kindle app on the iPad, and that's just about the worst app I know. Terrible.
Mammarella 10 years ago
I buy e-books (mobi or any other file), strip DRM, if any, and convert to epub. And then I move them to a separate library on my external hard drive. No Amazon or B&N will ever be able to sneak a nasty surprise on me. I do not share these books and I do not give them away, since that's what the authors ask. But I pay money for these books. A lot. I just spent close to $200 on Kobo. I feel like I am entitled to a copy that I can ready on any device, when I want it and as many times as I want it, without B&N or Amazon censoring my shelves. Sony e-Reader and iPod is all I need. I refuse to buy Kindle.
My Fiction Nook said: With the paperback, you no longer have it. With an ebook, there's no actual transfer - meaning, it doesn't automatically disappear from your e-reader.

I've been wondering about that for a while. If Amazon & B&N have capability for lend function, w/ the ebook 'returning' automatically after the lend period expires, then tech-noob me wonders why they can't make the transfer permanent. In Anna's case, she doesn't want the book, period, so why not have the ability to forward it to a friend? (Or sell like people do on ebay re: DTBs? hmmm....)
I may be odd woman out but I'd guesstimate that even now, roughly 50% of my purchases are DTBs. Partly b/c I need to hold the book for certain genres (don't ask), partly b/c some books/authors are very popular w/ my RL circles so we swap back & forth, and partly b/c prices for some ebooks (mostly trad-pub'd but not always) have gotten ridiculous that I'd rather get a DTB & not have to deal w/ one-time (or no) lending.
AnnaLund2011 10 years ago
stupid question: what is a DTB?
Nope, my bad for assuming. DTB = dead tree book (aka hardcopy, old-fashioned, etc) :)
Mammarella 10 years ago
Prices ARE ridiculous! And not even for a copy, but for a so-called license to read. And how many times does DRM allow the book to open - seven? O.o
AFAIK, there's no limit re: books (unlike w/ some PC software).
Abandoned by user 10 years ago
You can open a book an infinite number of times, and download it to an infinite # of devices. The restriction is that you can only dl it to 6 devices simultaneously. You can also have any number of people/devices registered to the same account. I have 9 people and 12 devices on my home account, all with access to my books.
AnnaLund2011 10 years ago
ha. If I gave everyone in my family access to my books half of them would need open heart surgery within minutes.
Abandoned by user 10 years ago
Some people set up a separate account for that type of material. I am boring - I don't read anything that I don't want my mother/daughter to know about. :)
Mammarella 10 years ago
I don't want my husband to share my Kindle account either or rather the other way around. Though he knows I read m/m ana f/f and all kind of kinks, he doesn't want to actually see the books I buy.
I have to be very careful about which account I'm using whilst on Amazon. And there's a reason why the PW option is activated on my Kindle. *wink*
Mammarella 10 years ago
I simply do not buy books from Amazon. Unless it's a give-away :) Or unless I can't find it anywhere else. Right now I prefer Kobo and diesel-ebooks.com.
Mammarella 10 years ago
I have another issue. Sometimes I end up with 2 copies of the same book. I have such a vast collection, that I simply forget. And being away from my computer and buying from multiple sites doesn't help. Then if I give that extra copy to someone else - is it piracy?
AnnaLund2011 10 years ago
Damned if I know!
Yeah, it's illegal bc you bought the license for yourself, not for someone else.

Interesting tidbit about DRM - can you really open the file a limited number of times? That seems ridiculous.
Mammarella 10 years ago
I know for sure some books can only be opened on very limited number of devices and only certain amount of times. Happened to me a few times, so I've done my research on that. However, that was a few years back and the rules might have changed. Not all DRMs are the same, either.
Anyways, I understand where the DRMs and strict licensing is coming from, piracy and all, but it still doesn't seem very fair to the readers :( Why can't I just buy a book, put it on a CD and give it to my friend in a nice box with a ribbon - enjoy your Birthday present!
I prefer not to buy DRM books, only if I can't find them anywhere else in another format
. I don't support bullies.
...Bookfanatic 10 years ago
I agree once you buy a book it should be yours whether it's a e-book, an audio book or DTB (I like that term) if I buy a book from Chapters/Indigo it's mine no one comes knocking on my door and says "Oh, I'm sorry we've decided not to sell this book anymore so give it back." or "Sorry we sold this book to you and you're not allowed to loan it to your friend or take it to the local used book store in exchange for a credit towards your next purchase there. You'll need to give us back our book now." and do you know why? Yes, exactly 'it's no longer their book' I purchased it from them I didn't rent it or borrow it (that would be the library for all you people who go sit in Chapter's/Indigo and read the whole book without paying for it (sorry that's one of my pet peeves). So if I buy an e-book and then wish to give it to my friend or my kid to read and I'm not retaining a copy there is just that one copy that I paid for it should be mine to do with as I please the same as if it were a DTB. But that's just my humble opinion.
AnnaLund2011 10 years ago
It should. And that is also MY opinion. But, alas, that is not the contract into which you entered when buying the darned thing, in most cases, apparently.
...Bookfanatic 10 years ago
I hear you, but they can't sue me for expressing an opinion all they can do is not like it. I play by their rules because the law says so, but it doesn't mean I approve of the rules.
Oh, I agree. Technically, that is possible (just like it's possible with Lendle and the Nook version of that), but that would then stop people from buying the books themselves. And we can't have that.

The latter is sarcasm, obviously. Hell, even if they'd charge a small transfer fee, it would certainly be worth it to a lot of readers.
Mammarella 10 years ago
The whole thing is sad. It alienates readers instead of catering to them.
Sherlock Lestat 10 years ago
Sandra and KarmaBites: exactly! That could be easily solved by doing just that: after it was successfully transferred to the new owner Amazon could delete it from your kindle. They don't do this because they don't want it not because they can't.
Mammarella 10 years ago
Technically, while you are still reading a borrowed (either from Amazon or B&B) book, you can easily make a copy of it. The file is on you hard drive if you send it from Amazon to your computer. Do what you want with it. I am surprised Amazon hasn't done anything about it yet.
Sherlock Lestat 10 years ago
I agree with all of you. That's just wrong! If it's just a "rental"/license then it should cost much, much less than the price of the paperback version. A tenth of if would be fair I think. And being a book and in electronic format you will have infinite lending time to read it or OK, even a limited time, like a month, or an year will be plausible and better then the actual model. Just like it is when you get a book in your public library. Here in most cases you have a week to read it and then if no one asks for it you can renew it for another week.

In the mean time, the solution for me and all who don't agree with this policy is to buy the paperback version. While we still have that option. Who knows, maybe in the future the paperback will be prohibited or just won't exist anymore. Hope that never happens. And fight back and start demanding changes in the actual policy so maybe it becomes more fair.
AnnaLund2011 10 years ago
I agree. But then the books I'm interested are mostly printed and sold in the US, and the taxes I have to pay on the actual price of the book, and the shipping? It ends up being around 25-30 dollars per book. Not possible. Also, aside from the prohibitive cost, I have over 1 000 books on my iPad now, no way I could ever host that amount of paperbacks in my home, physically.
Mammarella 10 years ago
And then they wonder, why there is such a problem with piracy. Obviously, something in the existing policy doesn't work.
Mammarella 10 years ago
I live in MA and my library has only 135 books available. In all formats.
https://bark.cwmars.org/eg/opac/results?query=gay+fiction&fg%3Aformat_filters=&qtype=keyword&locg=59&sort=
And I know, an average e-book price is about the price of coffee at Starbucks, but then again, not all of us go there because! of the price.
AnnaLund2011 10 years ago
I love that this old thread has gotten a new life. It's a good discussion!
...Bookfanatic 10 years ago
It's good sometimes to revisit old discussions you go back with fresh ideas or maybe even a different perspective. To be honest I'm not much of a library person simple because sometimes I'll see a book and I know I want to read it and I will but not within the time frame that a library allows. I've bought more than one book that has sat on my shelf for a year or longer and than I'll be looking for something different to read, it catches my eye and bang I'm reading it. It's just the way I've always been, other times I'll buy a book and I don't even make it out of the story before I'm hooked and need to get home so I can devour it.

I'm a little anal about my books, my family will tell you if you go through my bookshelves you have to really look hard to tell which books I've read. For me books are precious, forget the damned ring Frodo, it's the books. I think it's because I came from a big family and we didn't have a lot of money so it was rare that we got books just because we wanted them.
...Bookfanatic 10 years ago
That too ^^^^
AnnaLund2011 10 years ago
I *really* like the concept that someone come onto Booklikes loking through our old blogposts and reviving them.
That's actually so cool I can't even.
:-)
Mammarella 10 years ago
This time credit goes to Atheist, Humanist, Scientist, Trekker (I believe) :)
AnnaLund2011 10 years ago
Yup! A New Entry! :-) *waves*
...Bookfanatic 10 years ago
I was chatting with him on another thread yesterday, very nice guy.
Mammarella 10 years ago
I just left a lengthy comment to one of his entries. He's (she's? - whatever) a pretty cool person :D
AnnaLund2011 10 years ago
I love meeting new people.
And I love that this thread is over 80 comments now. heh
...Bookfanatic 10 years ago
Anna, I've don't think I've ever known you to be so repetitive, lol.
...Bookfanatic 10 years ago
He's a he.
Mammarella 10 years ago
I guess we know why it's 80+ comments now - haha!
AnnaLund2011 10 years ago
hehehe I don't KNOW why it did that!
Mammarella 10 years ago
It's over 80 + three more now :D LOL
Sherlock Lestat 10 years ago
I'm a little embarrassed here :-) Thank you all. In time I will go through all posts of everyone I'm following. "Oh man, that will take a while". So expect some more old posts coming back to life.
I'm male, 37, you can call me Anderson. If I had to choose a word to define me it will be "equality".

I'm following a lot of people, but you don't have to follow me back. I will follow people with interests in common and people with opinions or tastes I don't agree. I like to hear what both sides have to say, I like to put my beliefs to the test from time to time to see if they still holds true. I love discussions because you always learn something new. Sometimes you piss someone off, sometimes YOU get pissed off, but in the end the gains are much better than the losses.

Basically I'm against all kinds of censorship. People should have the right to speak their minds, even if what's in there is wrong, unethical, garbage, etc. In the worst case, you know what they think and you can stop following them.

I understand it will be impossible to keep a library at home with 1000 paperback books. Ebooks win there. Better yet, imagine a public library made exclusively of ebooks: they will fit in a single room. A lot of trees will be saved too.

On the other side, some people prefer paperback, the smell and feeling of having an actual book in their hands. But I guess in the end ebooks will win.

As I don't keep the books I read, for me it does not matter if is an ebook or a paperback. BUT, with the actual Amazon(and others) policy, for now and for me, the best option is to buy paperback books.
AnnaLund2011 10 years ago
Welcome!
And for the record, I like DTB too, not just ebooks.
And I don't shop with Amazon.
Mammarella 10 years ago
Thanks for the introductions! :)
I don't shop with Amazon either. I would love to quit GR, too, but they have the most amazing database :( Hopefully, LeafMarks will soon be just as good.
...Bookfanatic 10 years ago
Well that's 3 of us who don't shop at Amazon and I still buy DTB's just not a lot of them, but there are certain authors that I just need to be holding that book in my hands when I'm reading their work, somehow the story just seems better. I know it's all in my head.
AnnaLund2011 10 years ago
DING DONG DING DONG you, dear Bookfanatic, were comment #100!!
please collect 200 hugs at the door
*waves*
...Bookfanatic 10 years ago
YEAH!!!! Hugs are good all the hugs, may I share them with all my friends please because then hugs are even better. Hugs to you!
AnnaLund2011 10 years ago
Of course you may! hugging the laptop clearly is not the same thing at all.
...Bookfanatic 10 years ago
Thanks. That is bizarre, my son is 27 and he likes both. He has an e-reader but there are times when he wants a DTB's, guess he's like him mom that way.