I just find it so hard to believe that young men can't get this. What is hard to understand about assault? What is hard to understand about someone doing something to you that you don't consent to? Do these men not have mothers? Sisters? Girlfriends? If one of their female loved ones was raped, would they be OK with that?
What is shocking is that anyone would have to be taught that sexual assault is wrong.
If you watch rapey porn from age 10 onwards, where all the sex women have is at the hands of at least 3 to 5 men, a dick in every orifice, rammed in so hard the whole woman shudders, where a huge peen is rammed down her throat without even asking whether they may, and until she visibly chokes and snorts cum out of her nostrils streaming goo and tears, when slapping her, on her face and body, is shown to be sexy and part of the foreplay, ditto spitting in her face, eyes, on her genitals, and with rarely less than 3 dicks inside her at all times--then you don't have to wonder about this. Particularly when sex education doesn't tackle these misconceptions. Quite a few are bound to get curious ideas about sex, and quite a few more will think that these practices are their due, just as girls end up watching these videos and think they have to submit to it, because that's how it happens.
What I described is current mainstream porn (not BDSM or rape porn you can access only behind stringent age checkes), porn you can look at for free on many sites. Want links for proof? How are they supposed to know differently?
That is so sick, it's hard to comprehend. And the fact that women participate in making these films astonishes me. I know I'm naive, but I don't get it. Then again, I never got how women could pose for Playboy and feed men's view of women as objects, either.
What is worse, there are a few (not many, but a few) younger porn stars telling the world at large how fantastic that job is, how much it earns, that it is perfectly safe, and so on and on. Check out Stoya ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stoya ). These girls get feasted like super stars among porn watchers and if they state how much they enjoy it, why shouldn't Mary-Jane from the biology class?...
I think part of what mystifies me is the lack of parenting. I'm going to (perhaps wrongly) assume that the young men reading YA novels and speaking to the author are probably not coming from poverty-line families where you have a whole lot of dynamics of institutionalized poverty and generational patterns of poorly educated and/or missing parents - that is bad enough, and at least provides some background explanation - whether it's causal or not, there's always been a correlation between poverty and sexual (and other) violence.
But no, I'm assuming that the kind of teenager who reads a YA novel and furthermore meets the author at a signing or a book talk at school or whatever, is probably from a rather better off demographic. Then I think about well known cases like the Steubenville case, and same there, not "poor ghetto minority" kids - these are well off suburban or small town kids, the high school jocks, with financially able parents and iphones and their own cars.
So where the hell are the parents in all this? How do you, with all the advantages of a middle class background in a wealthy western country, manage raise a kid to this age and yet not instill in them a sense of right and wrong, of personal physical autonomy, teach them that violence is not ok, that just because you see it in moving pictures on the screen doesn't mean it's the real world.
I really don't get it. Because these things really aren't that hard, I managed it for crying out loud, and I'm about the least parental parent anyone could ever meet.
I feel the same way, Krazykiwi, because even in the Steubenville case, those kids knew what they were doing was violating someone. Unless one is living in a bubble, issues of rape and bullying are all around you and I can't imagine they've ever encountered or heard of a girl who said being raped wouldn't bother her. So where does a question like, "They ask me why Melinda was so upset about being raped." come from. It just doesn't make sense to me that any boy could be that totally clueless, unless they really don't understand what the word 'rape' means.
Even with lack of parental controls, the idea that a girl would not be overly bothered by rape doesn't make sense. Especially if you live in a culture of violence, you still know that the violated person isn't consenting or happy about being violated, otherwise the action wouldn't have to be conducted with violence.
Heh, but that was what I was saying above: in porn the girls go through excruciating rapes and horribly violent, misogynic sex and at the end, they smile and state that they are fine, thank you, and that they enjoyed it immensely, If not that, then they are shown to have repeated lustful orgasms during that sex. Think hard, how many movies were there since "Extremeties" and "The Accused" which truly went to town about rape? These two were from the late 80ies when 3rd wave feminism had its hey-day. If I hadn't specifically sought them ought I'd have missed these two as well and I'm at least double the age of the boys asking that question!
This website is a quite intriguing read, lots of sub-pages, but they are eye-opening.
By Caroline Norma
posted Jan 29, 2009 at ninemsn.com
Seven youths, some in school uniform, subjected a 13-year-old girl to sex acts, one of which was filmed and sent to a mate, a Sydney judge has been told.
The girl, who felt threatened and intimidated, performed oral sex on five of the youths during her hours-long ordeal at two isolated toilet blocks and on a building rooftop in Sydney.
During one incident, she was told, "Just smile like you're enjoying it," while one youth later gave her his phone number and asked her to call him.
At times, youths yelled at their mates to "hurry up, it's taking too long" and "your turn's up".
Four of the teenagers, who were aged 15 and 16 at the time and cannot be named, faced a sentencing hearing in the NSW District Court on Thursday.
Three have pleaded guilty to one count of aggravated sexual intercourse with a girl under 14, and the fourth has admitted two such offences.
A fifth youth, referred to as KD, will be sentenced separately, a sixth is before the Children's Court, and no information was available on the seventh, who is referred to as "an unnamed male" in the agreed facts.
The offences took place in July 2007, at two different toilet blocks in Yagoona parks and later on the rooftop of a Bankstown building.
The facts said the girl agreed to meet KD at the Bankstown Bus Depot on that day, after having first met him days earlier at a shopping centre.
He arrived in full school uniform and, to her surprise, was accompanied by two other youths, one similarly dressed and the other in partial uniform.
The trio caught the train to Yagoona railway station, where the girl was led to a public female toilet block in a park, where four other males were seated outside.
Comments such as "you're hot" were made to her, before KD asked "would you give my friends head jobs?".
When she said no, he continued to question her, resulting in her feeling "threatened and intimidated" and saying "yeah whatever".
She went into a cubicle with one youth, with whom she had oral sex, after which another teenager said "I'm going to root her" before penetrating her and causing pain.
After they were disturbed by council workers, the girl was surrounded and walked to another toilet block in a nearby park where more oral sex took place, as well as digital penetration.
Later, at a building rooftop in Bankstown, another youth arrived and she was told to give him "a head job".
She said: "I don't want to. I've had enough. I've had to give everyone head jobs today."
She eventually complied "feeling angry that she was being forced to do something she didn't want to".
That evening, the girl was told video footage of her performing oral sex on one youth had been sent to another male.
In sentencing submissions, lawyers for the four referred to their immaturity, lack of sex education, good family backgrounds and contrition.
One of the four boys, who was only at the rooftop, had not known about what happened earlier and had "taken the opportunity" to engage in his first sexual encounter, Judge Richard Cogswell was told.
Here's an excerpt:
Myth: Most rapists are creepy old men.
Fact: The majority of perpetrators are men; however, rapists are not physically identifiable and most men are not rapists. Perpetrators may appear friendly, normal, and non-threatening. Many are attractive, charming, intelligent, young, married and have children. Rapist types and traits however can be categorized. Rapist range by age. ethnicity, religion and class. People have been raped by doctors, lawyers, police officers, politicians, celebrities, high school or college students, family members etc.
-------------------------------
The key is the parents. It's the responsibility of the parents to teach children strong ethics and morals. If you have a wealthy, privilege man thinking he can get away with rape, then why not his son.
The problem, as I see it, starts with that many if not actually even most parents leave teaching their children ethics, BUT ALSO teaching them any sort of sex education to a school system which directly fosters competition, bullying, peer pressure and has no problem with violence.
What is shocking is that anyone would have to be taught that sexual assault is wrong.
What I described is current mainstream porn (not BDSM or rape porn you can access only behind stringent age checkes), porn you can look at for free on many sites. Want links for proof? How are they supposed to know differently?
But no, I'm assuming that the kind of teenager who reads a YA novel and furthermore meets the author at a signing or a book talk at school or whatever, is probably from a rather better off demographic. Then I think about well known cases like the Steubenville case, and same there, not "poor ghetto minority" kids - these are well off suburban or small town kids, the high school jocks, with financially able parents and iphones and their own cars.
So where the hell are the parents in all this? How do you, with all the advantages of a middle class background in a wealthy western country, manage raise a kid to this age and yet not instill in them a sense of right and wrong, of personal physical autonomy, teach them that violence is not ok, that just because you see it in moving pictures on the screen doesn't mean it's the real world.
I really don't get it. Because these things really aren't that hard, I managed it for crying out loud, and I'm about the least parental parent anyone could ever meet.
Even with lack of parental controls, the idea that a girl would not be overly bothered by rape doesn't make sense. Especially if you live in a culture of violence, you still know that the violated person isn't consenting or happy about being violated, otherwise the action wouldn't have to be conducted with violence.
This website is a quite intriguing read, lots of sub-pages, but they are eye-opening.
http://www.oneangrygirl.net/pornmyths.html
This is from one of the subpages:
By Caroline Norma
posted Jan 29, 2009 at ninemsn.com
Seven youths, some in school uniform, subjected a 13-year-old girl to sex acts, one of which was filmed and sent to a mate, a Sydney judge has been told.
The girl, who felt threatened and intimidated, performed oral sex on five of the youths during her hours-long ordeal at two isolated toilet blocks and on a building rooftop in Sydney.
During one incident, she was told, "Just smile like you're enjoying it," while one youth later gave her his phone number and asked her to call him.
At times, youths yelled at their mates to "hurry up, it's taking too long" and "your turn's up".
Four of the teenagers, who were aged 15 and 16 at the time and cannot be named, faced a sentencing hearing in the NSW District Court on Thursday.
Three have pleaded guilty to one count of aggravated sexual intercourse with a girl under 14, and the fourth has admitted two such offences.
A fifth youth, referred to as KD, will be sentenced separately, a sixth is before the Children's Court, and no information was available on the seventh, who is referred to as "an unnamed male" in the agreed facts.
The offences took place in July 2007, at two different toilet blocks in Yagoona parks and later on the rooftop of a Bankstown building.
The facts said the girl agreed to meet KD at the Bankstown Bus Depot on that day, after having first met him days earlier at a shopping centre.
He arrived in full school uniform and, to her surprise, was accompanied by two other youths, one similarly dressed and the other in partial uniform.
The trio caught the train to Yagoona railway station, where the girl was led to a public female toilet block in a park, where four other males were seated outside.
Comments such as "you're hot" were made to her, before KD asked "would you give my friends head jobs?".
When she said no, he continued to question her, resulting in her feeling "threatened and intimidated" and saying "yeah whatever".
She went into a cubicle with one youth, with whom she had oral sex, after which another teenager said "I'm going to root her" before penetrating her and causing pain.
After they were disturbed by council workers, the girl was surrounded and walked to another toilet block in a nearby park where more oral sex took place, as well as digital penetration.
Later, at a building rooftop in Bankstown, another youth arrived and she was told to give him "a head job".
She said: "I don't want to. I've had enough. I've had to give everyone head jobs today."
She eventually complied "feeling angry that she was being forced to do something she didn't want to".
That evening, the girl was told video footage of her performing oral sex on one youth had been sent to another male.
In sentencing submissions, lawyers for the four referred to their immaturity, lack of sex education, good family backgrounds and contrition.
One of the four boys, who was only at the rooftop, had not known about what happened earlier and had "taken the opportunity" to engage in his first sexual encounter, Judge Richard Cogswell was told.
http://www.oneangrygirl.net/myth3.html
Especially the 9th reference by "Zillmann and Bryant (1986 and 1988)" is a massive eye-opener.
Myth: Most rapists are creepy old men.
Fact: The majority of perpetrators are men; however, rapists are not physically identifiable and most men are not rapists. Perpetrators may appear friendly, normal, and non-threatening. Many are attractive, charming, intelligent, young, married and have children. Rapist types and traits however can be categorized. Rapist range by age. ethnicity, religion and class. People have been raped by doctors, lawyers, police officers, politicians, celebrities, high school or college students, family members etc.
-------------------------------
The key is the parents. It's the responsibility of the parents to teach children strong ethics and morals. If you have a wealthy, privilege man thinking he can get away with rape, then why not his son.